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	<title>Comments on: “What Not to Wear” Should Never Be More Than a TV Show</title>
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	<description>an insider&#039;s perspective on Israeli culture</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 11:05:18 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Avital</title>
		<link>http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246&#038;cpage=1#comment-9977</link>
		<dc:creator>Avital</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246#comment-9977</guid>
		<description>Thank you for your article, but I too do not agree. I have had almost the identical experience that BGH has had.
 I am surprised that you would compare Orthadox Jewish dress to Muslim. If we wear something not within our guidelines it can cause us or others who do fallow Jewish dress Halacha feelings of awkwardness and discomfort when we are together. Sometimes unfortunately, it can come between relationships. If I went over to a conservative friends house wearing a mini skirt in front of her husband and kids it would be similar. It makes people uncomfortable when they have to be around others that seem &quot;half-naked&quot; by their standards. 

You wrote : &#039;I have chosen not to cover my hair. This places me at odds with the community in which I grew up, which saddens me at times.&quot; So, you made a choice not to cover your hair. There were some repercussions, but still, you had a choice. Maybe not as a youngster, but a person does not have to have religous parents for them to restrict what their child wears.

Here are a few exerpts from an article on Muslim dress codes. THIS is what NOT HAVING A CHOICE looks like.


These exerpts are from an article in The Boston Globe:
 In San Francisco, a young Muslim woman was shot dead after she uncovered her hair and put on makeup in order to be a maid of honor at a friend&#039;s wedding.

 In Saudi Arabia, the Islamic police prevented schoolgirls from leaving a burning building because they were not wearing headscarves and abayas; 15 of the girls died in the inferno.

 No international furor saved Aqsa Parvez, a Toronto teenager, whose father was charged on Dec. 11 with strangling her to death because she refused to wear a hijab. &quot;She just wanted to look like everyone else,&quot; one of Aqsa&#039;s friends told the National Post, &quot;and I guess her dad had a problem with that.

 There has been no storm of outrage about the intimidation and murder in Basra, Iraq, of women who wear Western-style clothing. Iraqi police say that more than 40 women have been killed so far this year by Islamists; the bodies are often left in garbage dumps with notes accusing the victims of &quot;un-Islamic behavior.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for your article, but I too do not agree. I have had almost the identical experience that BGH has had.<br />
 I am surprised that you would compare Orthadox Jewish dress to Muslim. If we wear something not within our guidelines it can cause us or others who do fallow Jewish dress Halacha feelings of awkwardness and discomfort when we are together. Sometimes unfortunately, it can come between relationships. If I went over to a conservative friends house wearing a mini skirt in front of her husband and kids it would be similar. It makes people uncomfortable when they have to be around others that seem &#8220;half-naked&#8221; by their standards. </p>
<p>You wrote : &#8216;I have chosen not to cover my hair. This places me at odds with the community in which I grew up, which saddens me at times.&#8221; So, you made a choice not to cover your hair. There were some repercussions, but still, you had a choice. Maybe not as a youngster, but a person does not have to have religous parents for them to restrict what their child wears.</p>
<p>Here are a few exerpts from an article on Muslim dress codes. THIS is what NOT HAVING A CHOICE looks like.</p>
<p>These exerpts are from an article in The Boston Globe:<br />
 In San Francisco, a young Muslim woman was shot dead after she uncovered her hair and put on makeup in order to be a maid of honor at a friend&#8217;s wedding.</p>
<p> In Saudi Arabia, the Islamic police prevented schoolgirls from leaving a burning building because they were not wearing headscarves and abayas; 15 of the girls died in the inferno.</p>
<p> No international furor saved Aqsa Parvez, a Toronto teenager, whose father was charged on Dec. 11 with strangling her to death because she refused to wear a hijab. &#8220;She just wanted to look like everyone else,&#8221; one of Aqsa&#8217;s friends told the National Post, &#8220;and I guess her dad had a problem with that.</p>
<p> There has been no storm of outrage about the intimidation and murder in Basra, Iraq, of women who wear Western-style clothing. Iraqi police say that more than 40 women have been killed so far this year by Islamists; the bodies are often left in garbage dumps with notes accusing the victims of &#8220;un-Islamic behavior.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: BGH</title>
		<link>http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246&#038;cpage=1#comment-2316</link>
		<dc:creator>BGH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Feb 2010 18:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246#comment-2316</guid>
		<description>While I appreciate your insight, I completely disagree with your article. Yes, it is true that women can bend hilchos tznius in order to still manage to look sexy, even completely covered. However, I am a ba&#039;alas teshuva who just started dressing with accordance to the Jewish standard of modesty. I am fashionable, but covered. I wear clothes from Banana Republic and J.Crew, and while I would say that my outfits are flattering, they are in no way suggestive. The results have shocked me. I go to a secular, top-20 university, and I am suddenly treated with exponentially more respect. Now that my chest is completely covered and my sleeves are long, males look into my eyes and actually listen to what I say. I am treated as an equal, not as a toy. On the contrary, when I was dressing like a secular college student, men would often look down my shirt, and I received more than my fair share of appreciative glances when I walked down the street in my v-neck and skinny jeans. While I was not intentionally seductive, men assumed that I was willing to put out because what college female isn&#039;t? It is very apparent when I am dressed in long skirts and long sleeves that, no matter how good I may look, I am not going to have a one-night stand and will probably not even touch them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I appreciate your insight, I completely disagree with your article. Yes, it is true that women can bend hilchos tznius in order to still manage to look sexy, even completely covered. However, I am a ba&#8217;alas teshuva who just started dressing with accordance to the Jewish standard of modesty. I am fashionable, but covered. I wear clothes from Banana Republic and J.Crew, and while I would say that my outfits are flattering, they are in no way suggestive. The results have shocked me. I go to a secular, top-20 university, and I am suddenly treated with exponentially more respect. Now that my chest is completely covered and my sleeves are long, males look into my eyes and actually listen to what I say. I am treated as an equal, not as a toy. On the contrary, when I was dressing like a secular college student, men would often look down my shirt, and I received more than my fair share of appreciative glances when I walked down the street in my v-neck and skinny jeans. While I was not intentionally seductive, men assumed that I was willing to put out because what college female isn&#8217;t? It is very apparent when I am dressed in long skirts and long sleeves that, no matter how good I may look, I am not going to have a one-night stand and will probably not even touch them.</p>
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		<title>By: Modern Orthodox Education aka How Men Can Control Their Sexual Urges</title>
		<link>http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246&#038;cpage=1#comment-846</link>
		<dc:creator>Modern Orthodox Education aka How Men Can Control Their Sexual Urges</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 15:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246#comment-846</guid>
		<description>[...] also quote Ilana Teitelbaum&#8217;s &quot;What Not to Wear&quot; Should Never Be More Than a TV Show: &quot;To me, the above examples of my life experience have one thing in common: They are both [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] also quote Ilana Teitelbaum&#8217;s &quot;What Not to Wear&quot; Should Never Be More Than a TV Show: &quot;To me, the above examples of my life experience have one thing in common: They are both [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Makovi</title>
		<link>http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246&#038;cpage=1#comment-168</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Makovi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 19:27:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246#comment-168</guid>
		<description>It should be noted that I am as religiously fundamentalist and conservative as the Haredim. It&#039;s just that I am conserving a Judaism that dates from the time of the Shulhan Arukh and Talmud and Tanakh, rather than conserving a Judaism that dates from the 19th century Hatam Sofer&#039;s paradoxical (and oft-cited, yet blatantly violated by its same proponents) adage, &quot;Hadash assur min haTorah&quot; (&quot;Anything new is forbidden by the Torah&quot;).

I am a religiously fundamentalist conservative, but my religion is the historical Judaism, and not this newly-invented Haredi caricature of historical Judaism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It should be noted that I am as religiously fundamentalist and conservative as the Haredim. It&#8217;s just that I am conserving a Judaism that dates from the time of the Shulhan Arukh and Talmud and Tanakh, rather than conserving a Judaism that dates from the 19th century Hatam Sofer&#8217;s paradoxical (and oft-cited, yet blatantly violated by its same proponents) adage, &#8220;Hadash assur min haTorah&#8221; (&#8220;Anything new is forbidden by the Torah&#8221;).</p>
<p>I am a religiously fundamentalist conservative, but my religion is the historical Judaism, and not this newly-invented Haredi caricature of historical Judaism.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Makovi</title>
		<link>http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246&#038;cpage=1#comment-167</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Makovi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 19:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246#comment-167</guid>
		<description>Excellent article; thank you for this.

As I remark in my blog post at http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/04/orthodox-women-and-body-image.html, I think the key to solving this entire problem is not so much to modify the rules of tzniut (this may very well be necessary, but I do not believe it to be the crux of the issue), but rather, our task is to reeducate men.

As you note, when men overemphasize tzniut (whose purpose, ostensibly, is to teach men that women are more than just bodies, that they are people as well), they defeat the purpose of tzniut, because women become nothing more than bodies to be hidden! An immodestly-dressed woman may appear over-sexual and deceive men into believing women are less than fully human, but overemphasizing tzniut will do precisely the same!

The key, then, is to reeducate men, to teach them how women are to be viewed. We might start with Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Berkovits&#039;s truly awe-inspiring article, &quot;A Jewish Sexual Ethics&quot;, in Crisis and Faith (Sanhedrin Press, 1973 if I remember correctly), and reprinted in Essential Essays on Judaism (ed. David Hazony, Jerusalem; Shalem Press, 2002).

We also need to educate our women differently. As Rabbi Yehuda Amital notes, Orthodox Jews of old were not so particular on halacha as the defining nature of Jewishness. Students of Rav Kook would say that it is a post-Temple perversion of Torah to limit Torah to the four cubits of personal individual halacha. Either way, women should be taught that FAR more defines them as Orthodox Jewesses than what they wear. To paraphrase and adapt Rabbi Amital&#039;s words, women may very well be required to dress modestly, but this is amongst other halachic imperatives, and this does not define them as Jewish women, any more than their eating kosher alone defines them as Jews.

See my blog there, http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/04/orthodox-women-and-body-image.html, for elaboration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent article; thank you for this.</p>
<p>As I remark in my blog post at <a href="http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/04/orthodox-women-and-body-image.html" rel="nofollow">http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/04/orthodox-women-and-body-image.html</a>, I think the key to solving this entire problem is not so much to modify the rules of tzniut (this may very well be necessary, but I do not believe it to be the crux of the issue), but rather, our task is to reeducate men.</p>
<p>As you note, when men overemphasize tzniut (whose purpose, ostensibly, is to teach men that women are more than just bodies, that they are people as well), they defeat the purpose of tzniut, because women become nothing more than bodies to be hidden! An immodestly-dressed woman may appear over-sexual and deceive men into believing women are less than fully human, but overemphasizing tzniut will do precisely the same!</p>
<p>The key, then, is to reeducate men, to teach them how women are to be viewed. We might start with Rabbi Dr. Eliezer Berkovits&#8217;s truly awe-inspiring article, &#8220;A Jewish Sexual Ethics&#8221;, in Crisis and Faith (Sanhedrin Press, 1973 if I remember correctly), and reprinted in Essential Essays on Judaism (ed. David Hazony, Jerusalem; Shalem Press, 2002).</p>
<p>We also need to educate our women differently. As Rabbi Yehuda Amital notes, Orthodox Jews of old were not so particular on halacha as the defining nature of Jewishness. Students of Rav Kook would say that it is a post-Temple perversion of Torah to limit Torah to the four cubits of personal individual halacha. Either way, women should be taught that FAR more defines them as Orthodox Jewesses than what they wear. To paraphrase and adapt Rabbi Amital&#8217;s words, women may very well be required to dress modestly, but this is amongst other halachic imperatives, and this does not define them as Jewish women, any more than their eating kosher alone defines them as Jews.</p>
<p>See my blog there, <a href="http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/04/orthodox-women-and-body-image.html" rel="nofollow">http://michaelmakovi.blogspot.com/2009/04/orthodox-women-and-body-image.html</a>, for elaboration.</p>
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		<title>By: Ann Davdison</title>
		<link>http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246&#038;cpage=1#comment-165</link>
		<dc:creator>Ann Davdison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 13:03:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246#comment-165</guid>
		<description>Thank you for a beautifully written, well made point. One question remains though: do parents have the right to force very young children into their religiously observant dress patterns?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for a beautifully written, well made point. One question remains though: do parents have the right to force very young children into their religiously observant dress patterns?</p>
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		<title>By: Elana Sztokman &#124; Ilana Teitelbaum on the oppressiveness of &#8220;Modesty&#8221; or &#8220;Tznius&#8221;</title>
		<link>http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246&#038;cpage=1#comment-163</link>
		<dc:creator>Elana Sztokman &#124; Ilana Teitelbaum on the oppressiveness of &#8220;Modesty&#8221; or &#8220;Tznius&#8221;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 09:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246#comment-163</guid>
		<description>[...] Teitelbaum wrote an insightful, intelligent and personal account of how rules of women&#8217;s dress are oppressive, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Teitelbaum wrote an insightful, intelligent and personal account of how rules of women&#8217;s dress are oppressive, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: elana</title>
		<link>http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246&#038;cpage=1#comment-95</link>
		<dc:creator>elana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 May 2009 18:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246#comment-95</guid>
		<description>Fantastic post! I completely agree with everything you write
Elana</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fantastic post! I completely agree with everything you write<br />
Elana</p>
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		<title>By: Aliza Hausman</title>
		<link>http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246&#038;cpage=1#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Aliza Hausman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:02:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.midnighteast.com/mag/?p=246#comment-39</guid>
		<description>As a convert to Orthodox Judaism, I have adopted much of the dress code but as you say, it has been a choice. After just a few years, it has amazed me how differently I&#039;ve looked at my elbows, my knees and those other regularly covered parts. It has been much debated on my blog whether I should cover my hair due to mitigating circumstances. 

But what no one seems to get is that by making the decisions I&#039;ve made, I have made a choice, like you said MY CHOICE and I do not in any way desire to press that choice unto others but I&#039;m glad that it was mine to make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a convert to Orthodox Judaism, I have adopted much of the dress code but as you say, it has been a choice. After just a few years, it has amazed me how differently I&#8217;ve looked at my elbows, my knees and those other regularly covered parts. It has been much debated on my blog whether I should cover my hair due to mitigating circumstances. </p>
<p>But what no one seems to get is that by making the decisions I&#8217;ve made, I have made a choice, like you said MY CHOICE and I do not in any way desire to press that choice unto others but I&#8217;m glad that it was mine to make.</p>
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